MightyBands, home gym system

Sunday, April 7, 2013

Wing Chun vs. Wing Chun

So a fellow WT colleague forwarded me this video the other day.  It’s WT vs WT my friends and yes, while one cannot fully judge a Youtube video without actually being there…I’m still gonna do it.

You can find the video here.

Two wing tsun guys would not make a great fight. In fact, the first minute of this clip pretty much highlights what two expert wing tsun guys would do in a fight…nothing. But that, in essence, is part of the WT fighting philosophy - to intercept an attack or entry, not to initiate one.

So they got that right.

But then things just fall apart from there and people are going to say they suck and they ran after their attackers and the other back peddled..and non-WT punches landed and grappling happened and anti-grappling didn’t work, why didn’t he see the kick, etc etc. 

Or that he didn’t use this principle or that principle or no knee pressure or didn’t just step in and punch.
Yes while that’s all true and yes maybe they do suck and are quite bad at Wing Tsun
I have to say that this is typically how fights seem to look especially between everyday Joe’s like you and I. You can see how difficult it is to fight an opponent that has space to move.  On top of that, you can see how once an opponent knows that you constantly try to move forward, that they can play with you. You can also see how difficult it is to just GO IN..especially when you are really getting hit. 

You can see how it’s hard to maintain that close distance without grabbing on.

You can see how difficult it can be to knock a guy out.

You can see how little wing tsun anyone really uses..of all their techniques, skills, chi-sao sections, etc..step and punch is all you got..you barely can throw in a chain punch.

These guys fought like how I sparred back in my days in University using my wing tsun (albeit I was a student level back then and didn’t fight other wing chun guys – instead MMA guys, karate guys, hapkido, taekwondo, kick boxers).  Sparring quickly reveals that things don’t happen like they do in the drills. The opponent doesn’t stay in your range and tries to get out as quickly as possible. I remember how annoying that got and I strategically ended up having to corner them.  Then there are moments where you grab them or they grab you, pin you against the wall with grabs/attempted takedowns..and you end up grabbing them to restrict their movements..yes it’s not Wing Tsun..but the reaction is just too natural. 

I have to also note that it’s different fighting guys who are used to fighting and guys who have limited fighting experience. The former have a tendency to take more risks, commit a bit more into their hits, get into a more realistic distance, put more weight into their punches

…while the latter hit with the tendency to stay away, with a fear of getting hit…it’s like they’re more concerned with being hit than hitting..

And fighting that type of opponent can be quite annoying as they are constantly trying to just “tag” you and back peddling which means you can’t get the right distance to land a meaty hit and just end up fatiguing over time.

Space is a factor. They fought in a huge gym. They ran around a lot because they had to the room to do so.  When WT guys train, they may train in smaller quarters, plus under the comfort and cooperation of maintaining close distance fighting.  But in this case, those rules didn’t apply. Any one of these guys could run around to their hearts content..of which you could see the other was getting incredibly frustrated with that.

So what’s my point?

My point is that…for the majority of us..this is what free-fighting will look like.  We can blame them for not doing this or that, but at the end of the day, I think this is the end product (sadly) especially for us guys who train WT for fun, as a hobby or extra-curricular activity. But this applies to any fighting system…karate, kung fu, jkd, mma. It just looks like shit. 

Another point

I do think that in a self-defense scenario, it would/could look different.  This is where the attacker just attacks. There’s no hesitation, just full commitment and with no knowledge of what your reactions would be. He attacks under the assumption that he will ‘win’ and hurt you. This type of scenario presents variables that may favor the person defending themselves, of course, could also mean you could get hurt more too.  But the self-defense scenario and the challenge match scenario above are two very different situations.

My last observation

Why didn’t they show the ending of the fight??? I thought that was lame. I don’t care how bad or boring it could’ve been but still show it.

My 2 cents.

Until then. 


Godfather said...

First of all, very nice blog.

Secondly, I've trained LTWT a couple of years (I'm on a hiatus now) and was very surprised to see in the video that the 4th technical grade didn't seem to use any WT at all. It kind of dissapointed me. I've seen much better fights in my gym (wich is led by a 1st technical grade). I think that both fighters being from different schools might have been a little too cautious not to engage. And, as Yoda would say, fear leads to anger...etc.
Lastly, I agree with you in the point of being /not being used to fighting. As I have zero experience (luckily) in real fights, when I was in more realistic drills, the fight used to go in one direction in my head but in a very different one in reality. Usually things ended being simpler and faster. In my experience, with time you get accustomed to it and start adjusting appropiately. I remember in my first weeks as student realizing that a man with a year or so of training wasn't good at judging distances and that I could hit him easily by getting closer slowly with small steps (I have long reach). Punching him in the face was fun, specially for a begginer who had never fought.

Gary said...

hard to call it a fight. a chase maybe. there is a reason in UFC that aggression earns points by judges. Even a great fighter can have a hard time looking good when the other doesn't come to fight, but to run and survive. As you point out, Wt is about defense vs a 'committed attack/assault'.

Seems from the comments on vid that the smaller guy on bottom submitted at end. Probably from getting punched, from the look of it.

Pablo said...

Great, honest post. I agree with most of what you said. I sortof feel that for the reason you said ("space matters"), it'd be a lot more interesting to do a fight like that in a fairly closed space of a few square metres tops, preferably with walls and not just a "ring" with cords, even that's too big imo.
It'd help I think because it forces you to stop backpedalling and really put on the forward pressure.
I also believe that the sign of a really good Wing Tsun practitioner is how well they can move around their opponent and find the holes in the defense given a very limited amount of space.

Seeing as how a lot of self-defence attacks usually start with the attacker talking himself into a close attack position and how WingTsun and most chi-sao type reflexes work a lot better at said range (when you can really use the elbow force and a boxer doesn't have the range advantage anymore with fast hip-movements), that could actually be interesting to watch.
This is one of the reasons why, when I'm doing a self-defence roleplay routine with a friend I train with, we do it in a room which doesn't have all that much free space. It makes it so you can't really backpedal that much and have to really use that forward intent.

I don't think I've actually seen sparring like that on youtube, have you?

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